Something that 2023 Eliza would add to the issue of women and the church is the issue of LGBTQ marriage equality and the church. That’s something I’ve noticed and pondered for years, but didn’t think super hard on it until my late 30s. I personally hang on to the 9th article of faith on this topic (we believe that God will yet reveal many great and important things). At the same time, I don’t presume to speak for the church. So instead I hang on to the hope that I have for change. Hope, which as I’ve seen so eloquently described in an Ensign essay which I’ll find the link for later, is “expectation based on experience.”
Anyway, so that’s the State of the Faith for me. What do you think?
THE NARRATIVES: These stories are case studies about people who not only see the gray area, but use their faith to help them navigate through it. These stories should be honest, yet hopeful. Please don’t feel like your story needs to be polished or didactic. Ideally the podcast will be conversational and casual, yet insightful. We’re not trying to give people answers as much as offer them ideas about how to grapple with questions in ways that encourage personal growth as well as a strengthened relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
THE INTERVIEW: The interview will have a general framework, but the flow will be organic and spontaneous. Be prepared to give a brief biographical sketch of yourself in the beginning of the interview. Include details that will relate to your narrative.
I grew up in California. Went to BYU, got married, finished school, grad school, moved to Northern Virginia with my husband and we’ve lived here for 13 years. We have four kids. Our oldest child is high-functioning austistic, which is what used to be called Asperger’s.
POSSIBLE QUESTIONS: You may be asked some of the following questions, but these are just general ideas to consider as you prepare for your interview.
How would you describe your religious foundation? What was your home like growing up? How did your parents teach you to live your religion?
Strong. We were always active at church. I’m the fourth of six kids and I grew up in a medium-sized town in Southern California, with a core group of kids my age who were also active at church. My family said family prayer every morning and night, had family home evening, we all went to seminary, my dad was the bishop. My parents are politically liberal but very religious. I didn’t actually know they were politically liberal, or that being so could be seen as an issue in the church community, until I was an older teenager.
How were you taught to gain a testimony? For you, what was your testimony based on?
My parents certainly led by example. I remember “catching” them praying quite a lot. My spiritual and religious habits came from them. They didn’t get super deep in terms of complexity and nuance. But they taught us straight from the scriptures and they took us to church every week. I think as a teenager, my testimony of the Book of Mormon and of Jesus Christ came through seminary, youth conference, and visits to EFY. I felt very keenly the need to repent of the mistakes I made and to try to be a better person. No one necessarily told me to, just the scriptures I memorized in seminary. I felt the Spirit the most through music and I still do.
What was one of your foundational spiritual experiences? What did this experience teach you that helped you deal with later questions?
Receiving my patriarchal blessing when I was 15. I felt very “seen.” I felt for the first time that I had a job to do. I have read it a million times, in every stage of life and faith. Some of the religion classes I took at BYU were foundational for me too. Dr. Brown was my favorite religion professor, S. Kent Brown. I still remember him telling us to ask ourselves, “Can I stand the light? And can I stand the darkness that comes afterwards or before?”
As a child or teenager, how did you view God? How was this view of God influenced by your parents? How did your relationship with your parents and the way they parented you shape your view of both God and religion?
I was pretty matter-of-fact about it. This was THE true church, and wasn’t I lucky to be born into it? My parents are orthodox Latter-day Saints, and they believed in accepting all the callings and going to all the meetings and supporting all the activities. It was definitely a sense of duty. I felt that God was kind and forgiving. I felt that he was happy with the way I was living my life, and that approval meant a lot to me. I suppose I have always wanted approval from my parents too, and so there may be something deeper there. As I got older I learned that they were a little more unorthodox in some ways than I had thought. My mom is a feminist, like me. I feel like I can talk to her about anything related to women and the church and she understands. My dad is incredibly generous with his attention toward whomever is talking with him at the moment. People flock to him with their problems. He and my mom both care very much about “the one” sheep and I would say that is a framework I want my life to fit into as well.
Describe a moment in your life when your religious paradigm shifted. Please be prepared to tell this story with both detail and honesty. What caused the shift? How did this shift change the way you viewed God or religion?
Right around the time I turned thirty, for the year or so before and after, I felt completely lost, a little bit like I was drowning almost. I found out later, after going to therapy, that I had anxiety and some obsessiveness happening, which was sort of a lingering postpartum issue that I had tried to bury. I woke up in the middle of the night one night, literally sat up with the urgent thought out of nowhere, “What if Jesus isn’t real?” I had never considered the possibility before, at least not seriously. And I wasn’t even really thinking about my faith in those years, I was just living my life, active in church, raising my kids. There was some tumult locally at that time with Ordain Women, but I didn’t feel like that was affecting me that much, although maybe it was and I just didn’t recognize it.
I felt like everything as I understood it just sort of vaporized in that specific moment in the middle of the night. After that I just sort of walked around with my eyes darting back and forth (not literally, but that’s what it felt like), feeling like everyone could tell that I was different. But this epiphany sort of got lost in the shuffle of my own mental illness for about the next two years. I went to therapy and figured out some of what was going on with me. I pushed the Jesus question aside until later.
How did you deal with your questions? What resources did you use? How did the way you saw religion help or hurt your process?
So I think I have had two different issues, the major one being wondering if I believed in God at all, and a more minor one being confused and at times angry about my role in the church as a woman.
For the first one, figuring out my faith, once I felt like my mental health was in manageable bounds, I turned to the Book of Mormon because I felt like praying wasn’t working, and I made a goal to finish the Book of Mormon in two weeks. It took me three weeks, but I was completely immersed in it. I had the audio playing on double-speed all day. Seeing the arc of this ancient civilization and the cycles that the people went through of prospering and then becoming humbled, seeing myself so completely in that metaphor, opened my heart in a new way. Moroni said you receive no witness until after the trial of your faith and I’ve read that a million times but it finally was concrete to me. I love the symbol of the heart that you see throughout the scriptures, that people’s hearts are softened or that they have a new heart. I felt that I got a new heart through this process. I can’t go back to how I felt before, the knowledge that I thought I had, but I don’t want to.
I have done the B of M “speed read” a few times since then and I kind of compare it to a Whole 30, which is a crash diet that cuts out sugar and processed foods and is meant to reset your cravings.
I can’t really pin down a process or resources in terms of the day to day maintenance. Very close friends of mine have stopped believing over the years, and family members, and every time we got another announcement from someone we loved who was leaving the church, my husband and I just decided yet again, we are committed, we are not going to go down that road. It has been hard for me, especially my first few close friends who left. It has gotten a little easier as I’ve clarified my own views and thrown myself into teaching my kids what I believe.
As far as women and the church, well, that’s still my cross to bear.
How does defining a testimony as a linear or static concept damage faith? How do you feel that a testimony should change or develop over time? Is it worth the risk?
I guess the concept of a linear or static testimony damages faith when we get older and start getting more and more information, and our life becomes full with other things, and we change. We go through developmental stages even as adults. This relates to autism actually; so, the autism diagnosis is a “spectrum,” which I think most people think of as linear (low-functioning vs. high-functioning) but it’s actually more helpful and more accurate to think of it like a true full-color spectrum, like a big circle full of all shades of every color, because people with autism (like people without autism) are SO unique. I also think about the image of the winding staircase, where you continue to cover a lot of the same ground but higher up. I think the circle is just a better shape to describe life than a line.
How do we get away from binary thinking (true/false binary) while still experiencing at least some degree of belief?
I guess my answer veers into agnosticism, but the fact is that we can’t know everything. We don’t know what will happen next, we don’t know all the details behind whatever transaction is happening in front of us, life on earth is complicated, so why wouldn’t faith be too? I really like the visual of the fetus in the womb who can hear noises, can see light, but has no idea what awaits her on the other side. I feel that way about eternity and heaven. I get these sort of glimpses or flashes. But I really don’t know. Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard.
What roles does cognitive dissonance play in your life? How can cognitive and spiritual tension be constructive? How does spiritual tension operate in your life?
I suppose thinking and seeking can be an exercise like any form of exercise. You need resistance and tension in order to grow. That growth never feels good in the moment, though.
When faced with the choice to leave the church or to stay, what made you stay?
It’s part of my heritage and the way I want to live my life. It’s how I want to raise my kids. My family and I have a lot to contribute. I want to be that reassuring voice to people who are struggling, that it’s not black and white and that it’s a journey. I haven’t ever considered leaving.
What helps you stay in the Church now? Is it that you don’t see reasons to leave or do the reasons to stay outweigh those reasons? How do you see it?
I have lots of reasons to stay. The scriptures speak to me. I like the structure that the church offers to study and understand the scriptures. I love the songs. I love Primary for my kids (and for me). I love the community. I love the rituals of the sacrament and the temple.
I don’t particularly have reasons to leave. I see things I don’t like, things I disagree with. Some of the things that bother me the most, I believe will change eventually. Others maybe not. There are lots of reasons that people leave. I’ve never been able to convince anyone that their reason for leaving isn’t enough. Because it is enough--for them. Even if I wish it weren’t.
What have been some of the most helpful resources for you as your faith has developed?
The Book of Mormon. Talking with lots of people, particularly my husband and my sisters. I love the book Women at Church by Neylan McBaine. And the book Letters to a Young Mormon by Adam S. Miller. Everything by Clayton Christensen. And Bruce and Marie Hafen. ;) There’s a Facebook group called Q.Noor Sisterhood that I really like too. I loved Searching for Sunday by Rachel Held Evans. I loved an article I read in the Ensign once that referred to what people commonly call a “shelf” (as a place to put troublesome doctrine) but the author thought of this instead as a puzzle. When you’re putting together a 1,000-piece puzzle you are constantly trying to make pieces fit and then setting them aside to try again later. It might take forever and you might need a lot of help, but eventually you’ll find a place for the 1,000th piece.
How do you try and avoid seeing in binaries? Do you have a specific experience which helped you to stop seeing in binaries?
I think just raising my kids, in particular my one child and realizing that there’s so much I don’t know about any given situation. I have been in SO many situations that I never ever thought I would be in. Usually in public, when my child is doing something that I think reflects badly on me (and on him). But I just have to push through, and I know I’m a good mom and he’s a good kid, even if it doesn’t look like it to strangers in the moment who don’t know our life. So, I just assume when I witness similar events in public that the mom I don’t know whose child is going off the rails, is also trying her best.
In your opinion, why are binaries dangerous? How do you try and teach your children to avoid black and white thinking? What risks do you see in this type of approach? How do you navigate those risks? How do you help your children navigate those risks?
I am still trying to figure out how to teach my children to avoid black and white thinking. With autism, a lot of things are black and white. That’s the only way the world makes sense when you’re getting so much input and it doesn’t all line up and settle in the way it does for a neurotypical person. We’ve run into this so many times when trying to explain and discuss complicated things. From the beginning we’ve always been pretty open with our kids about everything. Sex, racism, history, politics, church, faith. But then I sometimes hear my words twisted because my son takes them to be literal. So I have to be really, really careful about that.
How do you avoid judging others who may think in binaries? How do you avoid judging others who may choose to leave the church?
That, I think, just takes time and experience, and you also have to be willing to apologize if you get into it with someone. Of course I pass judgment on anyone who doesn’t agree with me (since obviously, being myself, I know soooo much ;), but I know that people pass judgment on me too and I think we just have to accept that and try to show love by discussing our differences (or not discussing them, if that’s better for the relationship at that time) and just be committed to embracing the diversity that comes from living in the world.
One thing that has helped me immensely, which may sound like burying my head in the sand, was to unfollow everyone I know on Facebook. I only follow family, and some discussion groups that have to do with my personal interests but are mostly strangers. It was just too easy to pass judgment on people in my life based on these little sentences they wrote or articles they shared.
In Faith is Not Blind, GK Chesterton’s three levels are mentioned (optimists, pessimists, and improvers). What do you do to be an “improver” in your own life?
As far as church goes, I try to be pretty open and curious in church meetings. Particularly in ward council. I’ve stuck my foot in my mouth so many times, but I feel like a faithful feminist voice is needed in those meetings. There’s this sort of trendy yet classic idea that’s been circulating the last few years of being vulnerable. Brene Brown. I’ve gone with that in all my conversations at church. I’m pretty open. And I am curious about what people think or believe and why. Sometimes it backfires (and sometimes I go into an anxiety spiral afterwards) but I think most of the time it’s positive.
Who are some specific people in your life who have modeled how to be an “improver?” What have you learned from them?
Hmm. I think people who run for local politics (school boards, city councils, etc.) are sort of a classic example of this. It seems that the higher up you get in politics, the more likely you are to have to bend your ideals or maybe even get into corruption. But that beginning local level, fresh new candidates, I really think that people are dedicated to improving, not looking through rose-colored glasses and not throwing up their hands, but really taking the information and trying to solve problems.
How does your specific area of expertise help you to deal with your religious questions? How does it complicate your faith?
I’m a librarian at a community college, so in a lot of my teaching and working with students I emphasize looking hard at the source of information: evaluating it for currency, relevance, authority, accuracy, purpose (CRAAP). I also emphasize looking at every side of an argument. So I guess my experience with teaching kids how to research helps me not be so absolute in what I believe, but also maybe I overthink things sometimes.
How has your education added nuance to your understanding of God and religion? How do you think education and critical thinking can help deepen faith?
I have always thought the main thing that helped me have such a good experience going to the temple for the first time, was my English degree. It’s all about symbolism and patterns. As I have gotten older I have seen that more in the scriptures as well.
How would you encourage others to approach difficult theological or spiritual issues? What has worked for you? What hasn’t worked for you?
I think it’s really important to talk to people who have wrestled with faith and have not become bitter. Also, I think we’re just used to getting things quickly and that’s now always how faith works. For me, I get these glimpses, or memories, or I have this experience where something just breaks inside. It’s a lifelong process. I’m sure I don’t have this all figured out.
How would you describe your relationship with God now? What experiences have helped to create this relationship?
I would say it’s about gratitude more than anything. In times when I felt like I wasn’t even able to pray, I could always say a prayer of thanks. “Thank you for (X).” It’s an evolving relationship. Much like any relationship. A healthy relationship isn’t one-sided, though. After my relationship with God is one-sided for awhile, then I always come back and apologize. The more I am able to pray and stay connected, the more I get those glimpses and flashes of something bigger out there that I can’t quite explain. It might be a long time--a really long time--between glimpses. But they carry me through.
